The question of why I eat meat is one I am asked a LOT by my vegetarian and vegan friends. “If you love animals so much, why do you eat them?” is normally how it is phrased.
Firstly. I think that the term ‘I love animals’ can be taken literally, I like animals a lot, but in my case I can’t describe that as ‘love’. My definition of love is that you value [them/it] more highly than yourself. Sure, if I had to rank myself against certain species of animals (Red Pandas anybody??) I’d probably lose out. But against individual animals? No way. If I had the choice between giving life-saving medicine to a child or to a kitten I would give it to the child without a second thought, and I sincerely hope that if you are reading this you can empathise with that position.
That answers the ‘if you love animals so much’ part, now on to the ‘why do I eat them’ part:
I eat meat because I enjoy it (that is, it’s tastes good and sustains me), and because I feel it is natural part of life. I think the fact that it tastes good and sustains me doesn’t need justification. And if it does, just let me make you some venison shank roast, or braised rabbit pasta before you make up your mind.
As for the circle of life aspect – some may call it barbaric, but it is no more barbaric than a dog or a pig eating a human (both have been recorded – teacup pigs don’t look so cute any more, do they?). The fact that some creatures die to sustain others has been a feature of nature since nature existed. It will continue until the universe is destroyed.
There is something that connects you to nature in the hunt for food.
Anybody who has grown their own vegetables will know a part of what I’m referring to. The give-and-take with nature that makes you realise just how small and insignificant our lives are compared to the sheer wonder at what our natural world can produce.
Combine that with the adrenaline and risk associated with hunting and you realise that you are not being cruel to an animal by killing it – but rather slotting into your allotted place in the circle of life. In the same way that a bacteria is not cruel by taking a human’s life, I don’t find it cruel to take the life of an animal for sustenance.
It’s not easy, and in no way fun, to take an animal’s life – after all it’s part of my role as a veterinarian to save animal’s lives when I can. Rather the act of killing and eating an animal becomes a philosophical experience which connects you to the animal in a unique and profound way.
This perspective is one I have come to through a lot of personal reflection and thought and is not the perspective of many other people in my profession, whether they be meat eaters or not.
I believe that everyone who is comfortable consuming meat should also be comfortable with the process of taking an animal’s life and be capable of doing it in a respectful and humane way. If you are not prepared to be a part of producing meat then, in my personal opinion, I don’t think you deserve to eat it
Seeing Practice 
You seem to consistently use the appeal to nature fallacy. You keep emphasizing the idea that because it happens in nature that it must be morally acceptable. Unfortunately, rape and killing within species is also something that happens naturally in nature, but we both know these are not morally acceptable actions.
“…you realise that you are not being cruel to an animal by killing it – but rather slotting into your allotted place in the circle of life.”
I find this to be your most controversial and completely incorrect quote. Not only do we not have any necessity for eating meat, but under this reasoning I can easily justify unnecessarily killing you or any other human being as long as it fits my “place in the circle of life.” By the way, you are again using the appeal to nature fallacy here again.
I’ve always found it ironic and surprising when veterinarians unnecessarily kill and eat animals and I hope you find it in you to expand your compassion to all sentient beings, whether or not you are treating them or not. I look forward to your response.
Veganly yours,
Manny Rutinel
MannyRutinel.com
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Hi Manny, thanks for the comment!
I think by bringing in the idea of an intraspecies morality argument is anthropomorphising the discussion excessively. From my understanding this is likely the point where our views on this issue diverge, so I won’t attempt to argue that. My point wasn’t to invalidate veganism or vegetarianism in any way – I find it a perfectly justifiable position to hold, especially when faced with some of the atrocities associated with the mass production of animals for food production. Personally, I eat very little meat or animal products, and those I do eat I eat with an awareness of where they have come from and a knowledge of how they were slaughtered and raised. I think it is irresponsible to support unnecessary suffering of any creature.
The appeal to nature point is not a fallacy in my view. Without purposefully quoting Mufasa from the lion king here: we are all a part of the circle of life. Our place in that is ultimately up to each person to decide individually.
Compassion should not be restricted to only sentient beings, there are animals that veterinarians treat such as spiders that could not be argued as possessing sentience. Yet we are still compassionate in our treatment of these creatures. There are clearly some non-human animals who have demonstrated an awareness of self in well-run scientific studies, and I would not consume these animals. However the argument that all animals are sentient and should be afforded a human level of empathy is one that I cannot subscribe to given my personal research and observations. If an animal is unable to understand the concept of death I don’t believe that it is a cruel action to end its life.
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I’m glad your attempt wasn’t to invalidate veganism. I, however, am attempting to invalidate meat consumption for the vast majority of the planet (with the exception of those in undeveloped nations who have no choice but to do so). You stated “I think it is irresponsible to support unnecessary suffering of any creature.” which indicates that you believe suffering is intrinsically bad and, therefore, happiness is intrinsically good. By unnecessarily killing a sentient being, whether done with or without suffering, you are stripping it of several happy experiences/time periods. This is why it is immoral and it is the same reason why unnecessarily killing any other sentient being is immoral (humans, dogs, cats, and your beloved pandas).
Using the naturalistic fallacy is always a fallacy. Under this fallacy, like I’ve stated before, I can justify unnecessarily killing you or raping you. For instance, let’s say my “place in the circle of life” was to rape children and kill/eat veterinarians, under your reasoning this is completely acceptable.
I’ve never stated that compassion should be restricted only to sentient beings. I do, however, believe that sentient beings should be a baseline for compassion. Whether insects, clams, or invertebrates are sentient is still up in the air, but I think it is essential we give them the benefit of the doubt. Sentience is not about an awareness of self! You as a vet student should know very well that it is the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity. By the way, you know who also doesn’t have the ability to understand the concept of death? Children up to the age of 3. Surely you don’t think infanticide is morally acceptable.
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Just in case you were looking for some motivation to become a vegan/vegetarian I’ve listed the top 5 reasons to go vegan here:
http://MannyRutinel.com/2013/10/28/top-5-reasons-to-go-vegan-or-vegetarian/
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Your last comment: “I believe that everyone who is comfortable consuming meat should also be comfortable with the process of taking an animal’s life and be capable of doing it in a respectful and humane way. If you are not prepared to be a part of producing meat then, in my personal opinion, I don’t think you deserve to eat it”. Are you comfortable with the factory farming methods that have been documented as cruel and inhumane with unfathomable (at least to me) abuse and cruelty charges placed against them? What about the degradation factory farms cause to the environment and the potential hazards they pose to river systems and soils and nearby produce farms? To me, that is not “the circle of life”–it’s more like some circle of hell.
I believe that eating meat is a part of life as well, however I choose not to 99% of the time because of the way the animals are raised to be slaughtered. I also, have no intention of ever killing an animal unless out of absolute need (if I was being attacked by something) or through practice (I’m pre-veterinary, so I know as a Vet it’s going to happen, I’ve been working in the field since I was 15 so don’t take this as a question of naivety), so like you said, I don’t think that I should eat it. I’m removing myself from that “circle of life” you mentioned and abstaining from meat when I can.
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Hi Brooke,
As I said in my reply to Manny, I’m not at all comfortable with many of the practices that are present in high-output factory farming. Atrocities is often-times the best word for some of the things that have been brought to light in previous years. HOWEVER much of the pressure to pursue these options comes from consumers wishing to buy low-cost food using up minimal land, which is a recipe for disaster. The focus should not be on demonising farmers, who in my experience are some of the hardest workers in society and in many cases are unhappy with the methods they use in order to reduce costs. Instead the movement should be on supporting farmers to benefit animal welfare as much as possible in changes to management, upgrades to equipment, and much more. Imagine the improvements that could be made to animal welfare if the effort put in to ‘stopping animal abuse’ was put in to improving the lives of animals in farming situations and working to develop and share new methods of improving the lives of the animals. THAT would be an animal welfare movement I would feel comfortable supporting!
If you are uncomfortable killing an animal for food, then as you said I think the best position to take is to abstain from meat. One thing that makes me incredibly angry is people who are uncomfortable with ending the life of an animal eating meat. Unfortunately our supermarkets allow people the avenue to remove the connection from the animal, something which I think is detrimental to our relationship with the animals and nature as a whole.
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“Imagine the improvements that could be made to animal welfare if the effort put in to ‘stopping animal abuse’ was put in to improving the lives of animals in farming situations and working to develop and share new methods of improving the lives of the animals. THAT would be an animal welfare movement I would feel comfortable supporting!”
Amen.
Also, your comment: “Unfortunately our supermarkets allow people the avenue to remove the connection from the animal, something which I think is detrimental to our relationship with the animals and nature as a whole-” couldn’t be more true. I have a bunch of friends that eat meat and, at the same time, absolutely cannot fathom what the animals undergo/how they’re killed. But they respond with: “I think of it as just food. I go to the market, pick it up, cook it, and eat it. It’s just food. I wouldn’t be able to eat it if I thought about it too hard.” And I think that’s wrong as well. I think you should be comfortable with whatever you enjoy eating, but like you said, there should be an awareness and acceptance of what you’ve eaten. If you can’t, don’t, or seek out ways (‘free-range’ farming, for example) that make you feel comfortable/make you feel more apart of the “circle of life”.
Also, I just wanted to thank you for being so diplomatic about the whole situation. Too often it’s this terrible fight on either side, when really there needn’t be a fight at all. If you want to eat meat, go for it, but I definitely believe in an animal welfare movement that supports both farmers and the livestock, as well as the environment that is taken up to use farms.
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I completely disagree with the “If you can fathom it, you should be allowed to do it” argument. This too easily justifies rape and murder. Unfortunately, even if we make it more ethically sound and less efficient, this would not be able to fix the environmental issue associated with meat production. In fact it would increase them because the system would become even more inefficient. I encourage you both to learn more about the environmental issue here:
http://MannyRutinel.com/2013/10/21/10-best-environmental-reasons-to-go-veganvegetarian/
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I find it slightly annoying that you keep comparing eating meat to rape and murder. They are not in the same class of behaviours. Very rarely would a murder be justifiable, and rape can never be justified. Just because other species do it, we, as a higher evolved species, know that this behaviour is wrong and for the most part have the capability to avoid performing these activities. However, eating meat is a part of sustaining ourselves, part of how we developed as the human race, and there is very little natural cause to prevent that. Comparing the two is chalk and cheese.
Additionally, some of your arguments about environmental reasons to go vegan are perfectly valid, whilst some I do have doubts about without further peer-reviewed scientific research to prove those claims. Equally, I could probably find ten reasons why it is environmentally better to support farming industries that supply meat without any difficulty.
What I would like to suggest is this: I, and the other people who have contributed to discussions on this post, have accepted your decision to become a vegan, and I personally applaud you for that. However, in return, please respect our decisions to continue eating meat. I have seen animals go from paddock to plate, and I also tried vegetarianism for a short time just to see what it was like from the other side.
All I am really asking is that you stop condemning us for our personal life choices. I love working with animals, and I would like to be a vet that can work with the farmers so that they can make sure their animals lead a good life. But that does not mean that I won’t like a good steak or chicken on a regular basis.
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Manny I’m sorry to tell you this but it’s people that behave like you that encourage me to eat meat. The belief that a person that an individual can decide whether the decisions I make in life are ‘correct’ based on their of personal circumstances is inherently wrong. I have a similar issue with those that try to force their personal religious beliefs on me, Ultimately each person has their own set of morals that they have developed upon living the life they have led which is unquantifiably different to the life that you have led, Therefore their moral judgement will be different to yours. Have you ever heard of the toilet roll scenario at a party? You, through your toilet roll, will see the party in a different way to what another person will see through their toilet roll because from where each of you is standing different things will either be in your view or blocked by that toilet roll, thus your view on the world will be different to someone else with a different view.
Also, The idea that you think that rape can be compared to eating meat is disgusting, eating meat is natural in that it is historically a necessity to keep the human race alive, unless you believe in ‘blue balls’ the same cannot be said for rape.
Instead of trying to invalidate another persons view on the world and tell them they are wrong you should encourage people to be aware of the facts (not just from your website but also from research papers and other authoritative sources) and encourage them to change their practices to a degree that they are happy with, within their toilet roll. I will not stop eating meat but I am careful where I source it so that I can be happy with the moral decision I have made, knowing how the animal lived before it was slaughtered, how it was slaughtered and also the environmental impact it had, Encouraging this sort of thought will get you more followers as you are not invalidating the values of another.
Off to eat my lamb chops now
Eddie 🙂
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@KLJ
Killing an animal is justifiable under the same reason that killing a human is: for self defense/self-preservation. I literally laughed out loud when I read “Just because other species do it, we, as a higher evolved species, know that this behaviour is wrong and for the most part have the capability to avoid performing these activities.” because THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT! We as more intelligent species should be held to a higher standard and should avoid the actions that are obviously wrong. Unnecessarily killing a sentient being for our entertainment or even for our consumption is morally wrong because of the fact that we can easily sustain ourselves on a non-sentient diet (and I am living proof).
Oh, and regarding my intolerance to the action of unnecessarily slaughtering sentient beings:
Was Abraham Lincoln intolerant of the confederates for owning slaves?
Was FDR intolerant of Hitler for killing the Jewish people?
Was Gandhi intolerant of the British Empire for exploiting his people?
Was Martin Luther King Jr intolerant of the southerners in favor of racism and segregation?
…
Does a bear s**t in the woods?
If being intolerant towards one of the most immoral and environmentally destructive actions is wrong, then I don’t wanna be right. What kind of person would I be if I know that the actions of others were wrong and I chose to stand back and do nothing about it? That my friend, is known as the bystander effect and I choose to forgo my tolerance of a wrongful action for the benefit of the world.
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You missed the point of my argument entirely. I have tried to see it from your point of view, you have failed to see it from mine. This debate is henceforth terminated.
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The point of your argument was that the process of eating meat is natural. This, however, doesn’t mean that it is morally acceptable. To claim that things that occur naturally are morally correct is to commit the appeal to nature fallacy. If we claim that the things that occur naturally are morally correct, then we can also claim that rape and murder are morally correct. (lions kill other lions, apes rape other apes, humans also “naturally” commit these actions.) These actions, however, are both morally incorrect because they unnecessarily cause suffering on other sentient beings.
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At least you have given it some thought. And for the record, I think it is silly when vegetarians ask that question, even though I am also vegetarian. It’s probably just because we get asked similar questions, and there are plenty of vegetarians who have reasons other than just “loving animals.” I just stumbled across blog (the HeforShe article is on point) and I love it. It’s great to be able to see perspectives of other vet students, but I am also glad that you are more supportive of women vets than some of the people (and my own schoolmates) that I have met recently. Anyways, just wanted to say I love it, keep up the good work, and best of luck to you while you finish school!! 🙂
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Thanks Amy! I think it’s great when people can discuss their different opinions on issues. No matter how much I’d like it if everybody had the same opinions about some things (such as sexism)…
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